#CWFediMeta

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://jorts.horse/@voxofgod" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Eli Wallach's favorite Bass</a> Important: <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Don(27)t(20)use(20)alt-text(20)to(20)write(20)around(20)your(20)character(20)limit(21)" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Don't use alt-text to write around your character limit!</a> That's because <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/wiki/jupiter_rowland/How(20)to(20)describe(20)images(20)in(20)the(20)Fediverse/Can(20)everyone(20)access(20)alt-text(3f)" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">not everyone can access alt-text</a>. And those who can't can never read the extra stuff you've put into your alt-text. It's lost to them. If you need more than 500 characters, you should instead <ul><li>move to a Mastodon server with a higher character limit</li><li>move to Misskey 3,000 characters (hard-coded) fully federated with Mastodon</li><li>move to a Misskey fork like Sharkey thousands of characters (configurable by admin without hacking into the source code) fully federated with Mastodon</li><li>move to Pleroma or Akkoma 5,000 characters (configurable by admin without hacking into the source code) fully federated with Mastodon</li><li>move to Friendica 16,777,215 characters (database field size) fully federated with Mastodon</li><li>move to Hubzilla 16,777,215 characters (database field size) optionally fully federated with Mastodon</li><li>move to (streams) or Forte > 24,000,000 characters (database field size) fully federated with Mastodon</li></ul> CC: @<a href="https://tech.lgbt/@dotjayne" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Jayne</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Misskey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Misskey</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forkey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forkey</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forkeys" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forkeys</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Sharkey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Sharkey</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Pleroma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Pleroma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkoma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkoma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltText" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltText</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWAltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWAltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=A11y" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">A11y</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Accessibility" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Accessibility</a>

Jupiter RowlandMastodon's previews for Article-type objects still link to the original instead of rendering the content itself, but now they also include the summary along with the title; CW: long (over 3,000 characters), Fediverse meta, Fediverse-beyond-Mastodon meta, quote-post

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> There isn't much that we can do. These standards, just like the various laws that triggered their creation, suppose that all social networks and social media are <ul><li>commercial and corporate with loads of money behind them</li><li>centralised silos</li><li>staffed with thousands upon thousands upon thousands of employees in office blocks all around the world</li></ul> For comparison, Hubzilla probably shows what's the best the Fediverse can do. It has an optional field for new registrations to confirm that they're over a certain age. However, almost all Hubzilla hubs have a "staff" of exactly one. A hobbyist. Unlike Mastodon servers, Hubzilla hubs don't even have moderators because Hubzilla is all about self-empowerment and self-moderation. Is that one admin honestly expected to verify the authenticity of the IDs and the birth certificates of newly-registrated users with the authorities in almost 200 different nations? There used to be a time when such regulations only applied to services from a certain size upward or from a certain revenue upward. But now something that can only be done by big corporations becomes mandatory for tiny hobbyist projects. Besides, how are these measures supposed to keep 13-year-olds from spinning up their own single-user Fediverse servers on machines at home? If this is supposed to be absolutely, 100% guaranteed to be absolutely, 100% water-tight, the two Hubzilla devs would have to check and verify the identity of everyone who wants set up their own hub before they allow the git-based installer to clone the repository from Framagit onto their servers. CC: @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@ieeespectrum" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">IEEE Spectrum</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AgeVerification" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AgeVerification</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://friendica.xyz/profile/montag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Montag</a> Wichtig übrigens: "Quote" und "Quote-Post" sind zwei völlig verschiedene Dinge. Die darf man nicht miteinander verwechseln. Quotes sind Zitate. Also das hier: <blockquote>das heißt, auf Mastodon sieht man einen Quote nur wenn der zitierte expliziet zustimmt, während der Quote auf allen anderen Fediverse Plattformen ganz normal angezeigt wird?</blockquote> Um die geht es hier aber nicht. Mastodon-Nutzer kennen nämlich keine Quotes, keine Zitate. Mastodon-Nutzer kennen ja im allgemeinen nur Twitter und Mastodon. Twitter hat keine Zitate. Mastodon auch nicht; es kann sie zwar anzeigen und seit Mastodon 4.0 (Oktober 2022) auch sauber, aber es kann sie nicht erzeugen. Und deswegen kennen Mastodon-Nutzer das gar nicht. Quote-Posts, um die es hier geht, sind dagegen komplette Posts, die in andere Posts reingebaut sind. Das ist das, was auf Friendica "Quoted Share" heißt. Also das hier: <a href="https://friendica.xyz/profile/montag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"></a><a href="https://friendica.xyz/profile/montag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Montag</a> schrieb den folgenden <a href="https://friendica.xyz/display/adf174d5-7668-7c09-5d73-641415501923" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Beitrag</a> Sat, 19 Jul 2025 23:08:45 +0200 @<a href="https://loma.ml/profile/feb" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Matthias</a> das heißt, auf Mastodon sieht man einen Quote nur wenn der zitierte expliziet zustimmt, während der Quote auf allen anderen Fediverse Plattformen ganz normal angezeigt wird? Das ist grober Unfug und ergibt überhaupt keinen Sinn, was haben sich die Mastodon Entwickler dabei gedacht? Auf Twitter heißt das "Quote-Tweet". Oder im Deutschen auch "Drüko" ("Drüber-Kommentar"; erst der Kommentar zum Tweet, dann der eingebettete Tweet) oder "Druko" ("Drunter-Kommentar"; erst der eingebettete Tweet, dann der Kommentar zum Tweet). Auf Mastodon wird auch "Quote-Toot" oder "Quote-Tröt" gesagt. Auf Friendica und Nachfolgern war das früher die einzige Möglichkeit überhaupt, einen Post weiterzuleiten. So etwas wie Retweets (Mastodon: "Boosts", Friendica: "Shares", Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte: "Repeats") wurde erst später nach und nach eingeführt. Auf Twitter ist dagegen in der Praxis das einzige Einsatzgebiet dieses Feature, über anderer Leute Tweets herzuziehen und diese anderen Leute auf dem Wege niederzumachen. Für was anderes werden Quote-Tweets da buchstäblich nicht benutzt. Und so ist es für Mastodon-Nutzer komplett unvorstellbar, daß irgendjemand irgendwo dieses Feature für was anderes nutzen könnte. Viele sind ja von Twitter nach Mastodon auch deswegen abgehauen, weil Mastodon eben keine Quote-Posts hat. Weil sie glaubten, da vor Quote-Posts sicher zu sein. Als Mastodon dann ankündigte, Quote-Posts einzuführen, haben ganz besonders Angehörige unterdrückter Minderheiten (Farbige, Schwule, Lesben, Transpersonen usw.) lautstark dagegen protestiert. Noch einmal: Niemand von denen wußte und weiß bis heute, daß es im Fediverse schon lange Quote-Posts gab und jeder Mastodon-Tröt jederzeit ungehindert außerhalb Mastodon und dann nach Mastodon rein quote-post-bar ist. Genau deshalb kommt Mastodon mit diesem "Feigenblatt" davon: Dieser Schalter wiegt die Mastodon in Sicherheit. In einer Sicherheit, die sie nie hatten, was aber annähernd niemand auf Mastodon weiß. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NichtNurMastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NichtNurMastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuotePost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuotePost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuotePosts" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuotePosts</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteTweet" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteTweet</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteTweets" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteTweets</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteToot" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteToot</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteToots" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteToots</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteTr%C3%B6t" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteTröt</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteTr%C3%B6ts" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteTröts</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteBoost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteBoost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuoteBoosts" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuoteBoosts</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuotedShares" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuotedShares</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=QuotePostDebatte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">QuotePostDebatte</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://infosec.exchange/@lennybacon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Daniel Fisher(lennybacon)</a> Müssen werden sie's so oder so. Mobilizon steht unter der AGPLv3. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mobilizon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mobilizon</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://troet.cafe/@andreas_heitmann" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AndyGER :verified_coffee:</a> Wenn du darauf bestehst, daß das ganze Fediverse ohne Ausnahme bis in die hinterletzten Winkel sofort und uneingeschränkt auch für total Technikferne intuitiv nutzbar sein soll, dann wird das Fediverse an sich ganze Features verlieren müssen, weil Nichtnerds sie nicht bedienen können werden. Dann wirst du z. B. den Nutzern von Hubzilla, (streams) und Forte ihre nomadische Identität und ihr gesamtes Berechtigungsmanagement wegnehmen müssen, weil das einfach nicht auf dem Niveau von WhatsApp bedienbar sein wird. Dann wird das Fediverse an sich aber auch weniger sicher sein, weil seine sichersten Bereiche ihre gesamte Sicherheit eingebüßt haben. Ich bin schon mehr als doppelt so lange im Fediverse ist wie du und schon länger auf Hubzilla als du im Fediverse. Und ich kann nur sagen: Ich bin strikt dagegen, daß mir auf Hubzilla ganze Features weggenommen werden, nur damit Hubzilla für Technikferne leichter zu bedienen ist. Und ich glaube, ich spreche für alle Hubzilla-Nutzer. Das ist ungefähr so, wie wenn man von Gentoo fordern würde, entweder wie Linux Mint oder gleich wie Windows zu werden oder den Laden komplett dichtzumachen. Gentoo-Nutzer nutzen Gentoo, gerade eben weil es so ist, wie es ist. Manche Dinge im Fediverse sind einfach, wie sie sind, weil sie so vorgesehen und so konzipiert sind, weil das deren Konzept ist. Die sind anders als Mastodon. Die sind sehr anders als Mastodon. Die sind eher für Nerds, die bereit sind, sich mit der Technik auseinanderzusetzen, die diese Technik aber auch brauchen. Nicht alles muß immer für dieselbe Zielgruppe geeignet sein; wenn es das wäre, würde man ganze andere Zielgruppen ausschließen. Das heißt, wenn du etwas suchen solltest, das an sich wie Friendica ist, aber moderner, flinker und weniger fehleranfällig, kannst du dir vielleicht doch mal (streams) angucken, und zwar bei @<a class="" href="https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu/.well-known/apgateway/did:key:z6MkwHLKBtw6i7zYkndtpdU7T32yPwE16B5V7mf26ACiZKJz/actor" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Der Pepe (nomád) ⁂ ⚝</a> (alias @<a class="" href="https://hub.hubzilla.hu/channel/pepecyb" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝</a>) auf <a href="https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://nomad.fedi-verse.hu</a>. Momentan müssen aber Neuregistrierungen wegen einer Botflut angefragt werden. Außerdem ist es noch komplexer als Friendica, du wirst dich auch da erst einrichten müssen, auch weil du standardmäßig nicht öffentlich posten wirst (ist da übrigens ausdrücklich ein Feature), WYSIWYG gibt's auch da nicht (selbst Formatierungsbuttons müssen "installiert" werden), und die Oberfläche sieht auch weder aus wie eine Smartphone-App von 2025 noch wie Facebook 2025. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://troet.cafe/@andreas_heitmann" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AndyGER :verified_coffee:</a> Was sind deine Anforderungen an Friendica? "Mastodon, aber mehr Zeichen und mehr Bilder, aber ansonsten bitteschön Mastodon?" Friendica ist eben konzeptionell, wie es ist. Und das trifft auf den ganzen Rest der Familie ebenso zu: Hubzilla, (streams), Forte. Dazu gehört eben auch vollwertige Blogging-Tauglichkeit, also nicht nur Mikroblogging wie Mastodon, sondern das volle Programm wie WordPress. Und da ist es gang und gäbe, Posts direkt mit Markup-Code zu formatieren. Da kann man noch so auf den Tisch hauen und fordern, daß das gefälligst alles WYSIWYG zu sein hat, daß der ganze Formatierungs-Hokuspokus gefälligst im Hintergrund abzulaufen hat, und daß das gefälligst hartgecodet und nicht abstellbar zu sein hat! Das passiert nicht. Man kann auch noch so sehr fordern, daß Friendica & Co. sehr viel mehr wie Mastodon werden, z. B. daß man Bilder nur als Dateien an Posts anhängen können soll, weil es doch viel zu kompliziert ist, sie mitten in Posts einzubetten. Das wird auch nicht passieren. Okay, dir gefällt das Ganze dann eben konzeptionell nicht. Es gibt aber Leute, für die das so, wie es ist, optimal ist. Wenn du dann aber auf die Idee kommst, Friendica & Co. gänzlich die Existenzberechtigung abzusprechen, dann mußt du dich nicht wundern, wenn du Gegenwind kriegst. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://loma.ml/profile/z428eu" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Kristian</a> Echt portable Daten und nomadische Identität gibt's in Fediverse seit 13 Jahren, seit Mike Macgirvin mit Red (später Red Matrix, heute Hubzilla) angefangen hat. Das ist keine Science-Fiction, das ist kein Experimentalfeature, das ist stabil und wird von Produktivkanälen genutzt. Ich schreibe hier von einem Hubzilla-Kanal, der über zwei Hubs geklont ist. Was Mike da gebaut hat, ist zum einen um Größenordnungen besser als das, was Bluesky vorhat. Zum anderen: Bluesky hat bis heute nicht geliefert. Mikes Erfindung ist dagegen seit mehr als einem Jahrzehnt ein bombenstabiler Daily Driver. Seit August 2024 gibt's mit Forte (Fork eines Forks eines Forks dreier Forks eines Forks (eines Forks?) eines Forks eines Forks von Friendica; alles immer noch von Mike) die erste Fediverse-Serveranwendung, die nomadische Identität komplett über ActivityPub abfackelt, die nomadisch ist, aber an Protokollen nur ActivityPub kann. Forte ist inzwischen auch offiziell stabil. Das einzige, woran jetzt noch gearbeitet wird, ist, wie man etwas, was a) von vornherein nur auf ActivityPub (oder einem anderen ursprünglich nichtnomadischen Protokoll) gebaut wurde, b) nie nomadisch war, und c) wo das Konto/der Login auch die Identität ist, so nomadisch bekommt wie Hubzilla, (streams) oder Forte. Das macht silverpill, der Entwickler hinter Mitra, und der schreibt auch die ganzen FEPs dazu. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=RedMatrix" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">RedMatrix</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NomadischeIdentit%C3%A4t" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NomadischeIdentität</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> And again, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte are way ahead. They were all made modular right from the start, and they can all be expanded with third-party add-ons and third-party themes (provided someone makes them) by adding third-party git repositories to your server. It helps that they themselves are all installed via git in the first place. For example, it's possible to add entirely new protocols as add-ons. On Hubzilla, protocols that aren't Zot (ActivityPub, diaspora*, RSS/Atom etc.) are add-ons and off by default for new channels. Hubzilla's counterpart to Mastodon's lists, only vastly more powerful, is called "privacy groups" and an official add-on that's off by default again. CalDAV calendar server? Wikis? Webpages? All add-ons. (streams) and Forte have a somewhat different set of add-ons and a different set of add-ons that are on or off by default for new channels. You can bolt all kinds of stuff to these four as third-party add-ons. Want a dating platform in the Fediverse? Just write an add-on for one or several of these four that ties into their (main, public) profiles with their dozens of fields, and you've got one. Better yet: You can upgrade the whole server, the core, the official add-ons, the official themes, third-party add-ons, third-party themes, in one fell swoop. Not first the official stuff and then each third-party repo one by one, but all at once. At least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, <code>util/udall</code> is the little helper that does it all for you. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=git" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">git</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ThirdParty" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ThirdParty</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AddOns" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AddOns</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=PlugIns" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">PlugIns</a>

Jupiter RowlandEs ist nicht egal, ob man "Mastodon" oder "Fediverse" sagt; CW: lang (über 2.100 Zeichen), Fediverse-Meta, Fediverse-über-Mastodon-hinaus-Meta

Jupiter RowlandIt does matter whether you say "Mastodon" or "Fediverse"; CW: long (over 2,100 characters), Fediverse meta, Fediverse-beyond-Mastodon meta

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://nerdculture.de/@M" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Möph</a> <blockquote>Oder mir ist es damals™ einfach nicht aufgefallen, weil ich glücklicherweise auf nettere User gestoßen bin.</blockquote> Du bist wahrscheinlich fast nur auf Leute gestoßen, die von Twitter nach Mastodon abgehauen sind, nachdem Elon Musk angekündigt hatte, Twitter aufzukaufen. Plus ein paar wenige, die schon länger auf Mastodon waren. Umgekehrt sind auch nur solche Leute auf dich gestoßen. Als du neu warst, hattest du also null Kontakt zu Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Nutzern. Ich schätze, du warst sehr lange der felsenfesten Überzeugung, daß "Mastodon" und "Fediverse" gleichbedeutend sind, weil das Fediverse nur Mastodon ist. Denn das Verhalten, das du beschrieben hast, legen nur Leute an den Tag, die hauptsächlich oder ausschließlich etwas anderes im Fediverse nutzen als Mastodon. Ich selbst war schon auf Friendica, als es noch mit "k" geschrieben wurde und Mastodon noch längst nicht mal eine Idee war. Ich bin insgesamt schon länger auf Hubzilla als 99,9% der Mastodon-Nutzer auf Mastodon. Mich stört es tatsächlich, wenn jemand eigentlich das ganze Netzwerk meint, aber "Mastodon" schreibt. Denn das diskriminiert alle Fediverse-Nutzer, die nicht auf Mastodon sind. Mich stört es auch, wenn jemand nur die Serveranwendung Mastodon meint, aber "Fediverse" schreibt. Denn das Fediverse ist sehr viel mehr als dieser Internet Explorer 6 unter den Fediverse-Anwendungen. Mich stört es auch, wenn jemand sich wünscht oder gar fordert, daß "das Fediverse" ein bestimmtes Feature einführen möge, das Friendica schon seit 15 Jahren hat. Oder wenn Leute fordern, daß "im Fediverse" ein Feature niemals eingeführt wird, das Friendica schon seit 15 Jahren hat, z. B. Quote-Posts. Ich weiß nämlich auch: Je länger ein Mastodon-Neuling glaubt, das Fediverse sei nur Mastodon, desto mehr gewöhnt er sich an ein reines Mastodon-Fediverse, das es so nie gab. Und je mehr er sich daran gewöhnt, desto verstörter ist er, wenn er erfährt, daß es im Fediverse auch noch andere Sachen gibt als Reintext-Microblogging mit maximal 500 Zeichen. Desto mehr wird er sich dagegen wehren. Desto eher wird er mich dafür attackieren, daß ich Hubzilla (voll durchformatiertes Macroblogging mit 16,7 Millionen Zeichen und tonnenweise anderen Features) nicht exakt so wie Mastodon benutze und meine Post nicht exakt wie Mastodon-Tröts aussehen. CC: @<a href="https://dresden.network/users/ueckueck" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ückück :ueckueck::pd::af:</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NichtNurMastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NichtNurMastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonZentrizit%C3%A4t" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonZentrizität</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonNormativit%C3%A4t" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonNormativität</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.social/@quillmatiq" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Anuj Ahooja</a> Friendica has had full support for formatted long-form articles since its inception 15 years ago. The same goes for all its surviving descendants, created by the same developer: Hubzilla from 2015, (streams) from 2021, Forte from 2024. In addition, Hubzilla can be used to post federating long-form articles (which are automatically sent to Fediverse connections and Atom feed subscribers) and optionally also to post non-federating long-form articles (which aren't sent anywhere). Friendica has also been able to subscribe to both RSS and Atom feeds since its inception. The same goes for Hubzilla. This is not new to the Fediverse at all. See also my Mastodon vs Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte feature comparison tables here: <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a75de76-eb27-4149-b708-f20b2f79d392" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a75de76-eb27-4149-b708-f20b2f79d392</a>. (By the way: This is a non-federating Hubzilla article.) CC: @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@michaelmarek" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Michael Marek</a> @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@eliasp" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Elias Probst</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongForm" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongForm</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongFormText" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongFormText</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongFormContent" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongFormContent</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> <blockquote>Is there a test server where I can have a look at this?</blockquote> I don't think there's a public hub that's reliably always switching to release candidates. But if you're daring, you may try <a href="https://zotum.net" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">zotum.net</a>; it's running dev code, so it's always ahead of the others. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> <blockquote>You say this like it's a bad thing.</blockquote> Not at all. One advantage is, as you've said, that the backend and the Web frontend can have their own developers, development of both can largely be detached, and they can be upgraded separately from one another. Separate Web frontends can be developed by people who actually know a thing or two about frontend development and UI design. I mean, look at the Web UIs of some all-in-one Fediverse server applications. They're often the digital counterpart of random knobs and switches poked through a piece of cardboard and labelled with a ball pen, just so that these knobs and switches are there. Sometimes they're the equivalent of expecting all kinds of end users to operate DIP switches, but hey, they're still better than soldering and unsoldering wires. Another advantage is that server software for which alternative frontends exist does not have to drag its default frontend around. There are Mastodon servers with alternative frontends, but they still have to have the two official Web UIs installed (the default one and the Tweetdeck-style one) because they're firmly welded to the backend. I guess we all know what a heavyweight Mastodon is, and I'm certain that part of the weight is caused by the built-in Web UIs. In stark contrast, you can set up an Akkoma server with Mangane instead of Akkoma-FE, as in without having to also install Akkoma-FE. By the way, Hubzilla is an interesting case here. Not only is its default UI very configurable, but Hubzilla itself is highly themeable, and third-party themes almost amount to entirely new UIs. At the same time, however, practically all official development efforts went only into the backend for most of its existence. Any Hubzilla UI has to wrestle an immense wealth of features, and not exactly new features were added over time. This, however, caused Hubzilla's UI to gradually turn into a jumbled mess because some of the new UI elements were seemingly added in totally random places. Not only was the UI never cleaned up, but the default theme is perpetually stuck in 2012 (the name "Redbasic" says it all, it was made for Hubzilla when Hubzilla was still named Red), it was derived from an early Friendica theme, and even Friendica wasn't pretty back then. Also, the documentation was completely neglected. So the situation last year was that there was only one working Hubzilla theme left, and that was Redbasic. It was the only theme that was even only upgraded to work with newer Hubzilla versions. There used to be other official themes, but they eventually ended up so outdated that they were removed altogether. @<a href="https://social.wedistribute.org/users/deadsuperhero" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Sean Tilley</a>'s third-party themes were last touched seven years ago, that must have been around the time when Hubzilla 3 came out. At the same time, the official documentation was not only highly incomplete, but it was so outdated that parts of it were simply false. It partly referred to features that had been axed many years ago (tech levels) and features that simply were never there (four different mention styles), and parts of it even still spoke of Red. Thus, nobody even knew how to develop new themes for current Hubzilla. That was when the community stepped in. @<a class="" href="https://hub.hubzilla.hu/channel/pepecyb" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝</a> sat down and <a href="https://help.hubzilla.hu" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rewrote the entire help</a>. @<a class="" href="https://loves.tech/channel/scott" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Scott M. Stolz</a> not only started working on his <a href="https://neuhub.org/page/documentation/install" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NeuHub themes</a>, but in the same process, he reverse-engineered Hubzilla's theming system to write documentation for theming Hubzilla which had never been written before AFAIK. Around that time, @<a class="" href="https://im.allmendenetz.de/channel/chris" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">?????</a> was dabbling with specialised themes for certain purposes, e.g. one very clean theme for Hubzilla channels used as long-form blogs. Later on, @<a class="" href="https://utsukta.org/channel/sk" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Saiwal</a> joined the fray with his now-popular <a href="https://github.com/saiwal/Utsukta-hub-themes" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Utsukta themes</a>. Granted, Hubzilla still carries Redbasic around, not only as the default for new channels unless the admin chooses another one, but also as a fallback in case a new Hubzilla version doesn't support existing third-party themes anymore. The latter is becoming less likely as the Utsukta themes are being built against Hubzilla's development versions now. Besides, it's in Hubzilla's nature that everything on a hub is updated at the same time, including third-party repositories. In general, the Hubzilla community is no longer that easily satisfied with a UI that "just works", and the devs have taken notice. Hubzilla 10.4, now a release candidate, will spruce up certain core parts of the UI. It will introduce a tree-style thread view as the new default instead of its current chronological view, something that Friendica, (streams) and Forte have had for significantly longer. That is, this is actually a side-effect of the introduction of "lazy loading" conversations to reduce the server workload. Also, upon user request, it will add a button to add images to comments. If (streams) and Forte grow bigger, the same could happen there. They have two official themes to choose from, fairly new Fresh and an older version of Redbasic. However, they don't have a large enough community for all the same things to happen to them that happened to Hubzilla, although Pepe has said he'd rewrite the (streams) and Forte help as well, seeing as Mike had ripped them out entirely with no replacements as they were too outdated at that point. Maybe someone will even write a guide on how to adapt Hubzilla themes to (streams) and Forte. That is, (streams) and Forte are both already the result of several years of UI and UX advancement and improvements and making them fit for a Mastodon-dominated Fediverse (where Hubzilla is still geared towards a Fediverse which it will dominate itself by the mid-to-late 2010s). This is stuff which can't be taken care of in themes because it concerns the UI engine itself, and it's partly tied deeply into the backend. While Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte won't be able to do without their official themes anytime soon, the official themes don't significantly weigh them down. Still, they require some maintenance work to keep up with the backend. <blockquote>Wouldn't Mastodon would be better if it specialised in developing apps, and outsourced the server side to people who know how to do back-end engineering?</blockquote> This makes me wonder which half Mastodon would be willing to outsource. I think they'd rather hold on to the backend and pass all the frontends on. Of course, this would come with the advantage of the official Mastodon mobile app actually becoming somewhat decent rather than remaining the "we need an official app, no matter how" kluge that it is today. CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkoma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkoma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AkkomaFE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AkkomaFE</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mangane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mangane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkomane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkomane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> So Pleroma and Akkoma (which, for some reason, is missing from the list) actually use the ActivityPub C2S API to connect their frontends? Even though Pleroma predates ActivityPub and started out as an alternative GNU social frontend, much like Mastodon? I mean, they're famous for having separate repositories for the server and the Web frontend (same name with "-FE" attached). And they're equally famous for having servers that forgo the official frontend in favour of third-party stuff, most notably Mangane. So if Mangane actually makes use of that API rather than a homebrew *oma client API, it could be used as or, if need be, modified into a sparrings partner for API-testing purposes, not to mention that it's living proof that the API actually works. As it integrates with Pleroma and Akkoma that well, I've got my doubts that it only uses the Mastodon client API. In the cases of (streams) and Forte which are almost the same software save for protocol support, the Web UI is much closer to the server backend, as flexible and modifyable it is. In their cases, the question would be whether they could be used to test just how far feature support in the ActivityPub C2S API can possibly go, maybe even whether it'd be possible to use the ActivityPub C2S API to build an almost fully-featured (streams)/Forte client app (except, of course, Web UI configuration and (streams)' per-channel ActivityPub switch which might cut the whole app off the server). CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Pleroma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Pleroma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=PleromaFE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">PleromaFE</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkoma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkoma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AkkomaFE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AkkomaFE</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mangane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mangane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkomane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkomane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=API" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">API</a>

Jupiter RowlandMastodon vs Facebook alternatives: Now with Forte! (CW: Fediverse meta, Fediverse-beyond-Mastodon meta)

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> Still, the headbutting was often justified for Mike. Unless, of course, you say that Mastodon is and has always been the one and only Fediverse gold standard and the one and only ActivityPub reference implementation. I'll give you an example: In July, 2017, Mike's Hubzilla was the very first Fediverse server software to implement ActivityPub. Mike played strictly by the rules. As Hubzilla has a character limit of over 16.7 million and supports text formatting on the same level as the best long-form blogging platforms out there, he declared Hubzilla long-form and made Hubzilla send Article-type objects. Just as the spec demands. In September, Mastodon became the second Fediverse server software to implement ActivityPub. But Gargron did not play by the rules. He only implemented a tiny subset of the protocol, namely what suited him. And he also broke it: Mastodon could display Article-type objects at their full length. But Gargron staunchly refused to implement any support for anything that goes beyond plain text. The ActivityPub spec explicitly says that Article-type objects are formatted. But Gargron wanted Mastodon to be a purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta, Twitter-cloning microblogging platform. And stuff like bold type, italics, headlines, embedded in-line images or titles aren't purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta, Twitter-cloning microblogging. And so Mastodon took fully formatted, long-form-blog-style posts from Hubzilla and ripped everything out that wasn't plain text. It basically defaced Hubzilla posts. That is, it had been defacing Friendica and Hubzilla posts all the same ever since it was launched. But this time, there was a spec that actually defined what Mastodon was doing as wrong. And that spec had been finalised and pronounced a W3C standard meanwhile. So Mike asked Gargron to please follow the official ActivityPub spec and make Mastodon support full HTML rendering for Article-type objects. Gargron refused. Old-skool microblogging is plain text and only plain text, full stop. This went back and forth. Eventually, Gargron presented a "solution": Mastodon now "renders" Article-type objects by showing the title and, right below, a link to the original. That is, basically not at all anymore. Of course, this meant that the vast majority of Mastodon users no longer read what came from Friendica and Hubzilla because they couldn't be bothered to open that link. Mike saw this as a direct assault against Friendica and Hubzilla and an attempt at excluding both from "the Fediverse" which was almost entirely Mastodon at that point already. So he himself had to break the spec and make Hubzilla send Note-type objects instead so that Mastodon renders them at all. It still defaces them to this day. (Friendica's solution was to send an Article-type object when a post has a title and a Note-type object when it doesn't have a title. Optionally, it can always send Note-type objects.) By the way: This very same head-butting has returned. Not between Gargron and Mike, though, but between Gargron and much bigger players. Platforms like Flipboard and Ghost have introduced ActivityPub, and they send Article-type objects just as the ActivityPub spec demands. The same goes for WordPress. And, of course, they don't send plain-text "long tweets". They send fully formatted news articles and blog posts. And now they demand Mastodon, as the biggest player in the Fediverse by user count, make their Article-type objects look just like they look at the source. They demand Mastodon not only render bold type, italics, headlines and the rest of the subset of text formatting that was introduced with Mastodon 4 in October, 2022. They also demand Mastodon show the titles and, most importantly, leave the images embedded within the articles in place, no matter how many they are. This is no longer Gargron and his devs vs a guy in the Australian outback. This is Gargron and his devs who try hard to bend the Fediverse to their will and assume supreme control over it vs the Ghost Foundation, Flipboard, Inc. and Automattic, Inc. that play strictly by the ActivityPub rules. And I dare say that Automattic, Inc. alone has more money and more market power than Mastodon gGmbH and Mastodon, Inc. combined. Mastodon has always gotten away with ignoring and breaking standards, re-inventing wheels and implying towards its religious followers that the whole Fediverse was built upon Mastodon and around Mastodon, and that everything that does things differently from Mastodon is inherently a broken add-on to Mastodon or an evil intruder. This time, they won't. And I guess they've actually taken it into consideration. CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=WordPress" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">WordPress</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Ghost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ghost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Flipboard" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Flipboard</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> I guess the main obstacle in development right now is that there are no clients to pair the server applications with and test them against. Then again, it would take a whole lot of clients. One unified client that covers e.g. Pleroma just as neatly as (streams) is impossible, seeing as how extremely different the two are. CC: @<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> @<a href="https://social.coop/@smallcircles" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">just small circles 🕊</a> @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@benpate" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ben Pate 🤘🏻</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Pleroma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Pleroma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://social.heise.de/@mho" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Martin Holland</a> Also gerade umgekehrt: Das Testmagazin auf /kbin fängt alle öffentlichen Posts mit dem Hashtag ab, weil es glaubt, es sei gemeint, dabei soll es das gar nicht? Okay, das ist unpäßlich je nach Hashtag-Konstellation. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%2Fkbin" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">/kbin</a>

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