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Replied in thread
@Bob Tregilus You could work around this by writing the alt-text in an external text editor and then copy-pasting it over into the alt-text field. If you need to see both the editor and the image, you could resize the editor so that it doesn't cover the images and set it to always be on top. An extra perk is that you can save your alt-text as a text file and re-use it later.

I myself always write my image descriptions in an external editor.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Logan 5 and 999 others The altbot posts its image description in a reply to wherever you've mentioned it. The image description will be in a wholly separate message than the image.

The altbot cannot automatically edit your image post and insert its image description into the alt-text field. You have to copy the image description generated by the altbot, edit your image post and paste the image description into the alt-text field manually.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #AltBot
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦 This would require three things, however.

One, any Fediverse server software would have to be capable of altering comments from any Fediverse software. Don't think that posts, comments etc. aren't formatted the same everywhere. They aren't.

For example, Mastodon would have to know and understand that it would have to remove @⁠osma@mas.to from Misskey, Sharkey, CherryPick, Iceshrimp etc. notes, @[url⁠=https://mas.to/users/osma]Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦[/url] from Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte comments and an invisible shadow mention from (streams) and Forte comments, too.

Two, anyone in the Fediverse would have to always have full and unlimited permission to alter everyone else's content without their consent. This is particularly crucial in the cases of Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte with their highly advanced and fine-grained permissions systems that don't even cover having your content altered by others.

Three, edits on any Fediverse software must always be federated to absolutely everywhere and anywhere in the Fediverse, no exceptions, regardless of software. AFAIK, there is Fediverse server software that still doesn't understand edits at all, and that will either ignore received edits or understand them as and treat them like new posts.

It's very similar to the wish for being able to edit alt-texts into other people's posts which seems to pretty much always come from people who think that the Fediverse is only Mastodon, or at least that everything in the Fediverse is like Mastodon plus one or two extra features.

And let's be honest: If you give especially Mastodon users the ability to alter other people's posts, they will want to alter other people's posts in lots of other ways. Like, delete summaries on Friendica/Hubzilla/(streams)/Forte posts because they're "abuse of the CW field" from a "Fediverse = Mastodon" point of view. Remove all hashtags but four, regardless of these hashtags triggering the automated, individual, reader-side content warnings that have existed in the Friendica family since five and a half years before Mastodon was first published. Cutting "long posts" (= everything over 500 characters) down to a maximum of 500 characters because "the Fediverse was invented by Eugen Rochko for only microblogging". Even removing any and all mentions of the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. Removing text formatting because "it has no place in a Twitter alternative". Or removing all contents from posts or comments altogether.

Of course, the very same Mastodon users will completely flip their shit if a Friendica user comes and copies their 20-post threads into one long post, deletes the contents of the 19 follow-ups afterwards and replaces the content warning in the abstract field (= their CW field) with an actual abstract, just to fit it into a Fediverse culture that's way older than Mastodon itself.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #Misskey #Sharkey #CherryPick #Iceshrimp #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Mention #Mentions #MentionTag #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Permission #Permissions
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
Are you referring to my mentions being @Erik :heart_agender: and @Roknrol rather than what you're used to, namely @⁠bright_helpings and @⁠roknrol? Using the long name rather than the short name and keeping the @ outside the link rather than making it part of the link? Likewise, the # being outside the hashtag link rather than being part of it?

This is because I'm not on Mastodon. The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. It has never been. So this is not a toot.

No, really. This is what I post from: https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/channel/jupiter_rowland, https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/profile/jupiter_rowland. I ask you: Does this look like Mastodon? Have you ever seen Mastodon look like this?

Where I am, this style of mentions and hashtags is hard-coded. And it has been since long before Mastodon was even an idea.

I'm on something named Hubzilla. Hubzilla is not a Mastodon instance. Hubzilla is not a Mastodon fork either. Hubzilla has got absolutely nothing to do with Mastodon at all.

It is its very own project, fully independent from Mastodon (https://hubzilla.org, https://framagit.org/hubzilla, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla).

Hubzilla has not intruded into "the Mastodon Fediverse" either. The Fediverse is older than Mastodon. And Hubzilla was there before Mastodon.

Hubzilla was launched by @Mike Macgirvin ?️ in March, 2015, eight months before Mastodon, by renaming and redesigning his own Red Matrix from 2012, almost four years before Mastodon. And the Red Matrix was a fork of a fork of his own Friendica, which was launched on July 2nd, 2010, 15 years ago, five and a half years before Mastodon. (https://en.wikipedia.org/Friendica, https://friendi.ca, https://github.com/friendica, https://joinfediverse.wiki/Friendica)

Friendica was there before Mastodon, too.

Here's the official Friendica/Hubzilla timeline on Hubzilla's official website to show you that I'm not making anything up: https://hubzilla.org/page/info/timeline. Scroll all the way down and notice all the features that you may right now know for a fact that the Fediverse doesn't have, but that Friendica has introduced to the Fediverse 15 years ago, five and a half years before Mastodon was launched.

Again, Mastodon has never been its own network. The Fediverse has never been only Mastodon. When Mastodon was launched in January, 2016, it immediately federated with

Friendica has been formatting mentions and hashtags the way I just did for 15 years now. When Mastodon was launched, Friendica has been formatting them that way for five and a half years already, and Hubzilla has done so for ten months. It is hard-coded there. It is not a user option.

That's because not everything in the Fediverse is a Twitter clone or Twitter alternative. [b]Friendica was designed as a Facebook alternative with full-blown long-form blogging capability. And Hubzilla adds even more stuff to this. This is why Friendica and Hubzilla don't mimic Twitter.

Another shocking fact: As you can clearly see here, Friendica and Hubzilla don't have Mastodon's 500-character limit. Friendica's character limit is 200,000. Hubzilla's character limit is 16,777,215, the maximum length of the database field. And it's deeply engrained in their culture, which is many years older than Mastodon's culture, to not worry about the length of a post exceeding 500 characters.

One more shocking fact: Friendica has had quote-posts since its very beginning. So has Hubzilla. Both have always been able to quote-post any public Mastodon toot, and they will forever remain able to quote-post any public Mastodon toot. And Mastodon will never be able to do anything against it. (By the way: In 15 years of Friendica, nobody has ever used quote-posts for dogpiling or harassment purposes. Neither Friendica nor Hubzilla is Twitter.)

You find this disturbing? You think none of this should exist in the Fediverse, even though all this has been in the Fediverse for longer than Mastodon?

Then go ahead and block all instances of Friendica and Hubzilla as well as all instances of Mike's later creations, (streams) (https://codeberg.org/streams/streams) from 2021 and Forte (https://codeberg.org/fortified/forte) from 2024.

Or you could go ask @Seirdy / DM me the word "bread" and @Garden Fence Blocklist as well as @Mad Villain of @The Bad Space to add every last instance on any of these lists to their blocklists for being "rampantly and unabashedly ableist and xenophobic by design" due to not being and acting and working like Mastodon and just as rampantly and unabashedly refusing to fully adopt and adapt to the Mastodon-centric "Fediverse culture" as defined by fresh Twitter refugees on Mastodon in mid-2022 as well as refusing to abandon their own culture which is disturbingly incompatible with Mastodon's. Essentially try and have four entire Fediverse server applications Fediblocked once and for all because they're so disturbing from a "Fediverse equals Mastodon" point of view.

Or you could go to Mastodon's GitHub repository (https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon), submit a feature request for defederating Mastodon from everything that isn't Mastodon by design and then go lobbying for support for your feature request.

As for why I have so many hashtags below my comments, here is what they mean. Many of them are meant to trigger filters, including such that automatically hide posts behind content warning buttons, a feature that Mastodon has had since October, 2022, that Friendica has had since July, 2010, and that Hubzilla has had since March, 2015.

  • #Long, #LongPost = This post is over 500 characters long. Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see my or anyone else's long posts.
  • #CWLong, #CWLongPost = CW: long post (over 500 characters long). Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see my or anyone else's long posts.
  • #FediMeta, #FediverseMeta = This post talks about the Fediverse. Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone talk about the Fediverse.
  • #CWFediMeta, #CWFediverseMeta = CW: Fediverse meta. Or: CW: Fediverse meta, Fediverse-beyond-Mastodon meta. Or: CW: Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta. Create a filter for either or both of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone talk about the Fediverse.
  • #NotOnlyMastodon, #FediverseIsNotMastodon, #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse: This post talks about the Fediverse not only being Mastodon. Create a filter for either or multiple or all of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about the Fediverse being more than Mastodon. Otherwise, click or tap any of these hashtags to read more about it in your Fediverse app.
  • #Friendica: This post talks about the Facebook alternative in the Fediverse named Friendica. Create a filter for it if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Friendica. Otherwise, click or tap it to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
  • #Hubzilla: This post talks about the Swiss army knif of the Fediverse named Hubzilla. Create a filter for it if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Hubzilla. Otherwise, click or tap it to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
  • #Streams, #(streams): This post talks about the Facebook alternative in the Fediverse commonly referred to as (streams). Create a filter for either or both of them if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Friendica. Otherwise, click or tap either of them to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
  • #Forte: This post talks about the Facebook alternative in the Fediverse named Forte. Create a filter for it if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about Forte. Otherwise, click or tap it to read more about it in your Fediverse app. It is also meant for post discovery.
  • #AltText = This post talks about alt-text and/or contains an image with alt-text. It is primarily meant for post discovery.
  • #AltTextMeta = This post talks about alt-text. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about alt-text.
  • #CWAltTextMeta = CW: alt-text meta. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about alt-text.
  • #ImageDescription = This post talks about image descriptions and/or contains an image with an image description. It is primarily meant for post discovery.
  • #ImageDescriptions, #ImageDescriptionMeta = This post talks about image descriptions. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about image descriptions.
  • #CWImageDescriptionMeta = CW: image description meta. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about image descriptions.
  • #Hashtag, #Hashtags, #HashtagMeta = This post talks about hashtags. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about hashtags.
  • #CWHashtagMeta = CW: hashtag meta. Create a filter for this hashtag if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about hashtags.
  • #CharacterLimit, #CharacterLimits = This post is talking about character limits. It is primarily meant for post discovery. But if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about character limits, create a filter for any of these hashtags.
  • #QuotePost, #QuoteTweet, #QuoteToot, #QuoteBoost = This post talks about quote-posts and/or contains a quote-post. If this disturbs you, create a filter for any of these hashtags.
  • #QuotePosts, #QuoteTweets, #QuoteToots, #QuoteBoosts, #QuotedShares = This post talks about quote-posts. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about quote-posts.
  • #QuotePostDebate, #QuoteTootDebate = This post talks about quote-posts. Create a filter for either of these hashtags if you don't want to see me or anyone else talk about quote-posts.
  • #FediblockMeta = This post is talking about fediblocks. It is primarily meant for post discovery.

Lastly: Having all hashtags in one line at the very end of a post that only contains hashtags is the preferred way in the Fediverse. For one, hashtags in their own line at the end of the post irritate screen reader users much less than hashtags in the middle of the text. It's actually hashtags in the middle of the text that are ableist. Besides, Mastodon is explicitly designed to have a separate hashtag line at the end of the post.
hub.netzgemeinde.euJupiter RowlandAn avatar roaming the decentralised and federated 3-D virtual worlds based on OpenSimulator, a free and open-source server-side re-implementation of Second Life. Mostly talking about OpenSim, sometimes about other virtual worlds, occasionally about the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. No, the Fediverse is not only Mastodon. If you're looking for real-life people posting about real-life topics, go look somewhere else. This channel is never about real life. Even if you see me on Mastodon, I'm not on Mastodon myself. I'm on [url=https://hubzilla.org]Hubzilla[/url] which is neither a Mastodon instance nor a Mastodon fork. In fact, it's older and much more powerful than Mastodon. And it has always been connected to Mastodon. I regularly write posts with way more than 500 characters. If that disturbs you, block me now, but don't complain. I'm not on Mastodon, I don't have a character limit here. I rather give too many content warnings than too few. But I have absolutely no means of blanking out pictures for Mastodon users. I always describe my images, no matter how long it takes. My posts with image descriptions tend to be my longest. Don't go looking for my image descriptions in the alt-text; they're always in the post text which is always hidden behind a content warning due to being over 500 characters long. If you follow me, and I "follow" you back, I don't actually follow you and receive your posts. Unless you've got something to say that's interesting to me within the scope of this channel, or I know you from OpenSim, I'll most likely deny you the permission to send me your posts. I only "follow" you back because Hubzilla requires me to do that to allow you to follow me. But I do let you send me your comments and direct messages. If you boost a lot of uninteresting stuff, I'll block you boosts. My "birthday" isn't my actual birthday but my rezday. My first avatar has been around since that day. If you happen to know German, maybe my "homepage" is something for you, a blog which, much like this channel, is about OpenSim and generally virtual worlds. #[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=OpenSim]OpenSim[/zrl] #[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=OpenSimulator]OpenSimulator[/zrl] #[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=VirtualWorlds]VirtualWorlds[/zrl] #[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Metaverse]Metaverse[/zrl] #[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=SocialVR]SocialVR[/zrl] #[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=fedi22]fedi22[/zrl]
Replied in thread
@Erik :heart_agender: @Roknrol What if I transcribe text within my image (for any definition of "text within my image") in a long image description in the post itself which I write in addition to the actual alt-text? And the alt-text explicitly mentions the long description at its end? E.g. "A more detailed description including explanations and text transcripts can be found in the post."

I often have so many bits of text to transcribe (in addition to describing where in the image they are) that I can't fit them all into the 1,500-character limit for alt-texts that Mastodon, Misskey and their respective forks impose on the whole Fediverse.

I'm not talking about screenshots from social media or something. I'm talking about renderings from 3-D virtual worlds where there may be 20, 30, 40 or more bits of text strewn across the scenery within the borders of the image. The rule says that all text within an image must be transcribed 100% verbatim, and it doesn't explicitly mention any exception, so I do have to transcribe them all. In addition, if they aren't in English, I must additionally translate them as literally as possible. There's no way I can fit all this plus a sufficiently detailed and accurate visual description into 1,500 characters.

But if you (or others) insist that all text within an image must be transcribed verbatim in the alt-text, and if you sanction image posts that transcribe the texts in the image elsewhere than in the alt-text, then I simply won't be able to post certain images in an appropriate way.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Transcript #Transcripts
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Bob Tregilus Only that "my best" has actually led to unimaginable extremes.

They say an image is worth a thousand words. I've once described one image in over 10,000 words. Over 60,000 characters. The post is so long that, I think, Misskey and its various forks have rejected it, as have Pleroma and Akkoma. It took me two full days, morning to evening, to describe that one image, in-world research included.

And I actually had to limit myself. For once, I did not give in-depth descriptions of the images within that image, especially not beyond what's actually visible in these images. That's because I've discovered that if I were to do that, I'd have to describe dozens of images in one particular image (in my image) and potentially over a hundred images in these, even though they're so small that they're technically invisible. It would have taken me months to write all that. And it would have been futile anyway. My character limit is over 16 million, but Mastodon rejects posts over 100,000 characters, and in the few places that do accept posts with millions of characters, next to nobody cares about image descriptions.

I haven't posted a new in-world image in over half a year. I've been working on-and-off on the descriptions for a series of rather simple avatar portraits since last autumn.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euUniversal Campus: The mother of all mega-regionsOpenSim's famous Universal Campus and a picture of its main building; CW: long (62,514 characters, including 1,747 characters of actual post text and 60,553 characters of image description)
Replied in thread
@Bob Tregilus Of course, this means that the more obscure the content of your image is, the more in-depth you will have to go. At worst, there's nothing in your image of which non-sighted people know what it looks like unless you describe it. Simply mentioning that it's there is not sufficient.

My own original images aren't even photographs, nor are they pieces of art that represent real life. They're renderings from 3-D virtual worlds, very obscure 3-D virtual worlds even. Nobody knows what anything in these world looks like unless they can see it in my images. At the same time, however, chances are that they become so curious about these virtual worlds that they also become curious about everything in the image, not just what matters within the context of the post. That is, sometimes the image itself as a whole is the context. Either way, this means I can't just focus on certain elements in the image in my descriptions. I have to describe everything.

So I've gotten to a point at which even filling the alt-text character limit forced by Mastodon, Misskey and their respective forks (they cut longer alt-texts off at the 1,500-character mark) doesn't cut it. All my original images have two descriptions now. In addition to the one in the alt-text that's very limited, there is another one in the post that's more or less fully detailed, that contains transcripts of all text within the borders of the image, and that also comes with all explanations that I deem necessary. Since I don't have a character limit to worry about (the limit is defined by the database field rather than a hard-coded or configurable number), this description is likely to grow well over a hundred times longer than typical alt-text.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Casey Sorry, ist wieder extrem viel geworden, aber weniger ging nicht. Es sind zunächst mal 15 Fragen.

Vorab: Ich beschreibe meine eigenen Bilder immer vollständig. Das heißt:
  • im Post selbst eine extrem lange, detaillierte Beschreibung mit Erklärungen und Text-Transkripten
  • im Alt-Text eine gekürzte, aber für Nicht-Fediverse-Verhältnisse immer noch überbordend lange Beschreibung ohne Erklärungen und, je nach Menge, ohne Text-Transkripte + Hinweis auf die lange Beschreibung und wo und wie sie zu finden ist

Der Grund: Ich muß davon ausgehen, daß meine Bilder neugierig machen, und zwar über den Kontext des Post hinaus. Sehende Nutzer werden, wenn sie meine Bilder sehen, möglicherweise nicht nur auf das achten, was im Kontext des Post wichtig ist, sondern sich alle Details des Bildes genauer ansehen. Sehbehinderte oder blinde Nutzer müssen dieselben Möglichkeiten haben wie sehende, alles andere wäre ableistisch. Also muß ich eine Vollbeschreibung abliefern. "Im Kontext relevant" existiert also bei mir nicht, weil der Kontext selbst keine Relevanz hat, wenn die Leute neugierig sind.

Falls du es überlesen hast: Meine eigenen Bilder sind keine Fotos, sondern aus virtuellen 3-D-Welten. Das dürfte die Sachlage ändern.


Erste Frage: Muß ich blinden bzw. sehbehinderten Nutzern tatsächlich die Möglichkeit geben, Bilder auf dieselben Arten und Weisen wahrzunehmen, wie sehende Nutzer es tun? Egal, wie sehende Nutzer meine Bilder wahrnehmen?

Zweite Frage: Wo ist der beste Ort für eine sehr lange Langbeschreibung (über 20.000 bis über 60.000 Zeichen) (zusätzlich zum Alt-Text)?
  • im Post selbst (Zeichenlimit über 24 Millionen) ganz am Ende
    (so verfahre ich aktuell)
  • in einem externen einfachen HTML-Dokument pro Bild, das direkt unter jedem Bild verlinkt ist
    (völlig ungetestet; "unter jedem Bild" wird von Mastodon so nicht übernommen)
  • in einem externen einfachen HTML-Dokument für alle Bilder zusammen, wenn es mehrere Bilder sind
    (auch ungetestet)

Dritte Frage: Soll ich bei der Vollbeschreibung eines Bildes darauf achten, was bei der Auflösung des Bildes erkennbar ist, und nur beschreiben und erklären, was tatsächlich erkennbar ist? (In virtuellen Welten kann ich alles mit fast unendlicher Auflösung sehen.) Kann ich auch beschreiben, was ich sehe, auch wenn es im Bild in der Auflösung, in der es gepostet wird, nicht erkennbar ist? Sollte ich das sogar?

Vierte Frage in diesem Zusammenhang: Haben Menschen, die blind geboren wurden, eine Vorstellung von Bildauflösung, also davon, daß in Bildern nicht alle Details sichtbar sind? Oder empfinden sie es möglicherweise als eine faule, ableistische Ausrede, wenn in einer Bildbeschreibung steht, daß ein Detail nicht erkennbar ist, weil die Bildauflösung es nicht hergibt? (In meinem Fall wäre es eine faule Ausrede, weil ich das Detail höchstwahrscheinlich in-world problemlos erkennen kann.)

Fünfte Frage: Wenn zum Verständnis meines Bildes zusätzliche Informationen nötig sind, weil das Thema so obskur ist, muß ich diese Informationen selbst sofort mit dem Bildpost mitliefern? Vor allem, wenn diese Informationen nicht ergooglebar sind? (Stichwort Barrierefreiheit für Menschen im autistischen Spektrum)

Sechste Frage: Grundsätzlich, wenn ich etwas in meiner Bildbeschreibung erwähne, wo ich davon ausgehen kann, daß Blinde/Sehbehinderte nicht wissen, wie es aussieht (z. B. weil es in der realen Welt nicht existiert), wollen sie dann wissen, wie es aussieht? Erwarten sie dann davon eine visuelle Beschreibung?

Siebte Frage: Wenn ich das Outfit einer Person (wie auch immer sich "Person" definiert) in einem Post beschreibe, in dem es um das Outfit geht, kann ich davon ausgehen, daß Blinde/Sehbehinderte mit z. B. Vichy-Muster, Vichy-Karo, Pepita-Karo, Fischgrät-Muster, Ösenknöpfen oder Fullbrogue-Schuhen immer etwas anfangen können, wenn ich die Namen nenne? Oder mit bestimmten Frisuren, z. B. einem Bob? Kann ich diejenigen ignorieren, die es nicht wissen? Kann ich davon ausgehen, daß solche Details selbst in einer Art Modefoto irrelevant sind? Oder muß ich das jeweils beschreiben oder gar erklären und beschreiben?

Achte Frage in diesem Zusammenhang: Was ist mit Kleidungsstücken, die so möglicherweise oder tatsächlich in der realen Welt nicht existieren, z. B. komplett selbstentworfene Herrenschuhe? Brauchen die eine Detailbeschreibung? Ich meine, da kann ich ja nicht einfach einen Namen nennen und davon ausgehen, daß jeder weiß, was ich meine.

Neunte Frage: Eine Regel besagt, daß alles an Text in einem Bild wortwörtlich transkribiert werden muß. Weiter geht die Regel nicht; es werden keine Sonderfälle genannt. Angenommen, ich habe Textelemente im Bild, die
  • so klein sind, daß sie in der Auflösung des Bildes nicht lesbar sind
  • so klein sind, daß sie in der Auflösung des Bildes nicht als Text erkennbar sind (weniger als ein Pixel hoch)
  • so winzig sind, daß sie in der Auflösung des Bildes mit ihrem Untergrund komplett verschwimmen und praktisch unsichtbar sind
  • teilweise verdeckt sind
Angenommen, ich weiß aber oder kann in Erfahrung bringen, was da genau geschrieben steht, und zwar Zeichen für Zeichen.
  • Muß ich diese Texte transkribieren (wörtliches Befolgen der Regel)?
  • Brauche ich diese Texte nicht zu transkribieren?
  • Darf ich diese Texte nicht transkribieren, weil sie eben nicht lesbar sind?

Zehnte Frage: Wie soll ich beim Transkribieren mit fremdsprachigem Text umgehen?
  • Wortwörtlich transkribieren und dann so nah am Original übersetzen wie möglich?
  • Auf die eigentlich vorgeschriebene wortwörtliche Transkription verzichten und nur so nah am Original übersetzen wie möglich?
Was, wenn z. B. die Bildbeschreibung englisch ist und auf einem Schild sinngemäß derselbe Text auf Englisch, Deutsch und Französisch steht?
  • Dreimal wortwörtlich transkribieren und zweimal davon jeweils so nah am Original übersetzen wie möglich (die Übersetzungen und der englische Text werden nicht identisch sein)?
  • Den deutschen und den französischen Text nicht transkribieren und nur so nah am Original übersetzen wie möglich, den englischen Text wortwörtlich transkribieren?
  • Nur den englischen Text transkribieren und sagen, daß dieselbe Aussage noch einmal auf Deutsch und Französisch vorhanden ist (also zwei Texte weder transkribieren noch übersetzen)?
Wie soll ich ganz speziell verfahren mit lateinischen Texten?

Elfte Frage: Wie soll ich beim Transkribieren umgehen mit Tippfehlern? Wie mit Rechtschreibfehlern? Wie mit sprachlichen Fehlern, wie sie z. B. Fremdsprachler manchmal machen? Korrigiert zu transkribieren, wäre nicht, den Text exakt wie im Original zu transkribieren.

Zwölfte Frage: Wie soll ich bei Detailbeschreibungen mit Schriftarten von Text umgehen?
  • Namen nennen bzw. erwähnen, welcher (bekannten) Schrift eine Schrift im Bild ähnelt?
  • Die Schrift zusätzlich technisch beschreiben, z. B. "geometrisch" oder "serifenlos"?
  • Die Schrift visuell beschreiben?
  • Die Schriftart überhaupt nicht erwähnen? Auch dann nicht, wenn sie auffällig ist?

Dreizehnte Frage: Ich beschreibe Farben inzwischen immer anhand jeweils einer, zwei oder seltener mehrerer Farben plus Helligkeit plus Sättigung, weil ich nicht davon ausgehen kann, daß jeder blinde oder sehbehinderte Nutzer mit Farbnamen etwas anfangen kann. Beispiele: "leicht blasses Mittelblau mit einem minimalen Anflug von Grün", "leicht gelbliches Mittelhell-bis-Mittelbraun", "Olivgrün, ein gedeckter, gelblicher Grünton". Ist das in Ordnung? Ist das die einzig korrekte Vorgehensweise? Oder ist das Overkill?

Vierzehnte Frage: Ich habe mal gelesen, daß taubblinde Menschen an Informationen darüber, wie etwas aussieht, nicht interessiert sind. Sie wollen wissen, wie sich etwas anfühlt, wenn man es anfaßt und berührt. Wie soll ich für sie etwas beschreiben, das rein virtuell existiert, also nicht berührbar ist?
  • so tun, als wäre es berührbar, und es entsprechend beschreiben
  • schreiben, daß es nicht berührbar und taktil erfahrbar ist, weil es nicht materiell ist
  • schreiben, daß es nicht berührbar und taktil erfahrbar ist, weil es nicht materiell ist, aber beschreiben, wie es sich anfühlen würde, wenn es materiell und daher berührbar wäre, sofern ich das weiß
  • keine Extrawürste für Taubblinde
Was, wenn eine Oberfläche in einer virtuellen 3-D-Welt eben kein reales Material emuliert?

Fünfzehnte Frage: Wie soll ich umgehen mit Bildern im Bild?
  • Nur erwähnen? Wollen Blinde bzw. Sehbehinderte nicht wissen, was auf diesen Bildern zu sehen ist?
  • Beschreiben, aber nur insofern, wie sie in-world für mich zu sehen sind?
  • Davon abhängig machen, wie groß das Bild in meinem Bild ist bzw. was davon in meinem Bild erkennbar ist?
  • Wenn das Bild im Bild wiederum einen virtuellen Ort zeigt und ich mich an den Ort begeben kann, Vollbeschreibung des Bildes im Bild, falls das jemanden interessiert?
Falls letzteres, was ist mit Bildern in Bildern im Bild? Wie tief darf bzw. muß ich gehen?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta #AltTextPolizei #Barrierefreiheit #Inklusion
chaos.socialCasey (@kc@chaos.social)3.78K Posts, 545 Following, 1.79K Followers · Software-Mensch, digitale Barrierefreiheit, Aktivistin, Träumerin, blind, neurodivergent, 🏳️‍🌈 Privat: Spezi-Lover, Curry-Connaisseur und Hundegöttin. Headerbild von @voidedmain@craftodon.social 💚

Suche Austausch bezüglich Bildbeschreibungen fürs Fediverse mit jemandem mit wirklich Ahnung; CW: lang (fast 8.000 Zeichen), Fediverse-Meta, Fediverse-über-Mastodon-hinaus-Meta, Alt-Text-Meta/Bildbeschreibungen-Meta

Replied in thread
@Schafstelze
(überflüssige Details auf der einen, fehlende wichtige Info auf der anderen Seite)

Im Endeffekt ist das Beschreiben von Bildern also eine Gratwanderung, um nicht Hochseilakt zu sagen, wo man exakt das Optimum finden muß. Minimal darunter oder darüber ist schon sanktionierungswürdig.

Und kopiert es dorthin wo es hingehört, nämlich in die Medienbeschreibung direkt am Medium.

Damit wäre also auch meine Vorgehensweise "illegal": relativ kurze, aber einigermaßen detaillierte Beschreibung im Alt-Text plus zusätzlich lange, hochdetaillierte Beschreibung inklusive aller notwendigen Erklärungen und inklusive Transkripten aller Texte innerhalb der Grenzen des Bildes im Post selbst (kein erwähnenswertes Zeichenlimit hier). Genau das sehe ich bei meinen eigenen Bildern aber als notwendig an.

Das Problem ist hier nur: Zumindest Erklärungen gehören niemals in den Alt-Text. Manche Menschen haben körperliche Behinderungen, die es ihnen unmöglich machen, Alt-Texte aufzurufen. Wenn Informationen nur im Alt-Text zu finden sind und weder im Post noch im Bild, dann sind diese Informationen für sie verloren.

CC: @Groschenromanautorin

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Garry Knight @qurly(not curly)joe This, by the way, is something that next to nobody in the Fediverse knows, and that many will deny and fight with all they can:

Alt-text must never include exclusive information that is neither in the post text nor in the image itself. Such information must always go into the post itself. If you don't have room in the post, add it to a reply or multiple.

That's because not everybody can access alt-text. Certain physical disabilities can make accessing alt-text impossible, for example, if someone can't use their hands. Money quote from way down this comment thread:

Deborah schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Mon, 10 Jul 2023 23:30:45 +0200 @jupiter_rowland

I have a disability that prevents me from seeing alt text, because on almost all platforms, seeing the alt requires having a screenreader or working hands. If you post a picture, is there info that you want somebody who CAN see the picture but DOESN’T have working hands to know? Write that in visible text. If you put that in the alt, you are explicitly excluding people like me.

But you don’t have to overthink it. The description of the image itself is a simple concept.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Inclusion #A11y #Accessibility #QuotePost #QuoteTweet #QuoteToot #QuoteBoost
hub.netzgemeinde.euHow far should alt-text for pictures from within virtual worlds go?Super-long rant about accessibility, the length of alt-texts for pictures taken in virtual worlds and incompatibility issues between Mastodon and Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Ángela Stella Matutina I'm talking about people who can't access alt-text due to physical disabilities.

People with a strong tremor who cannot move a mouse cursor onto an image and keep it there steadily. They exist. It was one of them who told me that explanations don't belong into alt-text.

Quadriplegic people or amputees. They operate their computers by poking the keyboard with a headpointer strapped to their forehead or with a kind of pen that they hold in their mouth. They have no way of using pointing devices whatsoever. They cannot move a mouse cursor onto an image because they don't have a mouse cursor. They use their computers entirely over the keyboard.

All these people do not necessarily have a way of making alt-text a) appear and b) stay where it is for long enough for them to read it.

If you regularly have a lot to explain in your images, don't put these explanations into the alt-text, just because you've only got 500 characters in your toots. Instead, move someplace in the Fediverse that offers more characters (e.g. Misskey: 3,000; Akkoma: 5,000; Friendica: unlimited).

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Alt Text Hall of Fame @David Bloom Yes.

Explanations, or any other information available neither in the image nor in the post text, must never ever go into the alt-text. That's because not everyone can access alt-text. And to those who can't access alt-text, any information exclusively available in alt-text is inaccessible and therefore lost.

#AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Ángela Stella Matutina That's good.

I've asked because I've got the feeling that alt-text/image description requirements are constantly being refined and raised in the Fediverse, and more and more existing descriptions won't pass anymore.

See, I usually spend hours on meme posts, both describing the image in the alt-text and explaining it in the post. As for my original images, it can take me days to describe them twice over, once in a "short" description in the alt-text that's actually already fairly long, once in a "long" description the size of an essay or even a short story in the post itself.

And I'm honestly waiting for the first to be so dissatisfied with that that they reply with their own alt-text and order me to both replace my alt-text with theirs and remove the long description from my post or else.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
@Robert Kingett Honest question from an alt-text and image description perfectionist to a blind user: When is it actually accessible enough that whoever posts an image doesn't have to fear repercussions?

Okay, there has to be an alt-text. It has to actually describe the image. So much is clear to me.

And I guess that while at least some blind people in the Fediverse treasure whimsy higher than accuracy, others may want alt-text to be accurate.

But it looks to me like there is a rather narrow margin between alt-text with not enough details and alt-text that's too long and/or too detailed. This isn't communicated anywhere. It's unclear, too, whether that margin is always the same, or whether it shifts with the content of the image, the context and someone's individual idea of who the audience of an image post is.

And seriously, there are images that simply cannot be described in a way that's perfectly ideal and useful for absolutely everyone out there. I've posted such images in the past, and my image descriptions must have broken all length records in the Fediverse. But I think not everyone is happy about having to read through such monsters.

CC: @Stefan Bohacek @Olivier Mehani @Alina Leonova

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Emma (IPG) The readability aspect is interesting. It directly contradicts those who say that if text is illegible in the image, it doesn't have to or even mustn't be transcribed. And I myself go as far as transcribing text that's so tiny that it's invisible.

But: Information that is not available in the image and not in the actual post either must never go into the alt-text!

Not everyone can access alt-text. Not everyone is on a phone. Not all possible frontends support alt-text. And some people are phyiscally incapable of accessing alt-text, for example, because they can't use a pointing device such as a mouse or a trackball.

If information is only available in the alt-text and nowhere else, it is completely inaccessible and therefore lost to a whole lot of people.

Thus, explanations must always go somewhere where they can access them, ideally into the post.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #A11y #Accessibility
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Ciara @Boab I guess there are enough signs that my image descriptions are hand-written, especially for my original virtual world renderings.

  • Alt-texts which lately keep reaching exactly 1,500 characters or only few characters short of that limit.
  • Alt-texts that also mention an even longer image description in the post. And there is an even longer image description in the post. Who asks an AI to describe an image in lots of details and then again in even more details?
  • No AI can produce image descriptions with five-digit character counts like the long one in the post.
  • Excessive detail information about an absolutely obscure niche topic in the long description.
  • Description of visual details that aren't visible at the image's resolution.
  • Transcripts of text that isn't legible or not even visible at the image's resolution.
  • Sometimes I run an extra thread with an image-describing log.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta
Mastodon.greenCiara (@CiaraNi@mastodon.green)13.2K Posts, 2.29K Following, 2.53K Followers · I post about books. I post photos I snap while wandering about. I post in English, dansk and Danglish. I mostly hang around these spaces: #Books #Audiobooks #ShortStories #Libraries #Bibliotek #Fredagsbog #SilentSunday #ClimateDiary #Aarhus Banner: Aarhus skyline and bay. Profile pic: Me, white, dark shortish hair, tallish, emerging from a tunnel, smiling, happy, wearing a bright red leopard-print dress because that’s the sort of thing a woman in her 50s can happily wear because who cares.
Replied in thread
Warum von außerhalb von Mastodon meistens keine Alt-Texte kommen; CW: lang (fast 3.500 Zeichen), Fediverse-Meta, Fediverse-über-Mastodon-hinaus-Meta, Alt-Text-Meta, Bildbeschreibungen-Meta Artikel ansehen Zusammenfassung ansehen
@Maxi 10x 💉 Na ja, die eine Sache dabei ist, daß Alt-Text nur auf Mastodon ein großes Thema ist und überall sonst nicht. Das Fediverse lebt ja nicht bis in den hintersten Winkel die Mastodon-Kultur und ausschließlich die Mastodon-Kultur. Und das wird es auch nie, weil Mastodons Kultur den technischen Features im Rest des Fediverse widerspricht.

Nicht nur Newbies wissen nichts von Alt-Text. Wenn z. B. jemand 2011 auf diaspora* angefangen hat, 2013 nach Friendica gewechselt ist und seit 2019 auf Hubzilla ist, dann sind das 13 Jahre im Fediverse, länger, als Mastodon überhaupt existiert. Aber es kann durchaus sein, daß so jemand nie mit Mastodons Kultur in Berührung gekommen ist.

Wenn er dann von einem Mastodon-Nutzer angeschnauzt wird, was er doch für ein ableistisches Dreckschwein ist, daß er keine Alt-Texte schreibt, dann weiß er erstmal gar nicht, worum es eigentlich geht. Mit Recherche und Nachfragen ergibt sich dann das Bild von irgendeiner komischen Mastodon-Modeerscheinung. Und was von Mastodon kommt, muß man ja auf etwas, das älter ist als Mastodon (Hubzilla ist von 2015), nicht nachäffen. Das ist dann die Reaktion.

Die andere Sache ist: Friendica und Hubzilla haben nicht so ein nettes Alt-Text-Eingabefeld wie Mastodon. Um da einen Alt-Text an ein Bild zu hängen, muß der Einbettungs-BBcode händisch umgebaut werden. Zum Beispiel von
[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/20a21c8e-9fdd-444c-b3bd-e19f0125c7ad][zmg=490x368]https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photo/20a21c8e-9fdd-444c-b3bd-e19f0125c7ad-2[/zmg][/zrl]
nach
[zrl=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photos/jupiter_rowland/image/20a21c8e-9fdd-444c-b3bd-e19f0125c7ad][zmg=https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/photo/20a21c8e-9fdd-444c-b3bd-e19f0125c7ad-2]Screen capture from the animated television series Fairly Oddparents, edited into an image macro. It shows a facial close-up of Mr Turner, lead character Timmy Turner's father. He is speaking in anger with his eyes squinted and directed to one side. The image has a large piece of text at the bottom which reads, “Gargron.”[/zmg][/zrl]

Auf Hubzilla ist das noch nicht mal dokumentiert; da erfährt man höchstens durch Hörensagen, wie das geht. Das heißt, wenn es da keinen Alt-Text gibt, kann es auch daran liegen, daß jemand nicht weiß, daß man auf Hubzilla überhaupt Alt-Texte eintragen kann, geschweige denn wie. Und auf Friendica ist das möglicherweise sogar verbuggt, was keiner meldet, weil es keiner nutzt.

(Für die Akten: Ich beschreibe alle meine Bilder und erkläre sie sogar. Und zwar seit mehr als einem Jahr so aufwendig und detailliert, daß ich pro Bild je nach Bild auch mal von mehreren Stunden bis zu zwei Tage brauche, vorherige Planung nicht inbegriffen. Mein Problem ist eher, daß es keine Möglichkeit gibt, im größeren Rahmen mit anderen Fediverse-Nutzern zu diskutieren, wie Bildbeschreibungen in extremen Randsituationen am besten auszuführen sein sollten. Ich würde auch gern überall, wo es nötig ist, CWs im Mastodon-Stil einsetzen, aber bei Kommentaren dürfte das hier auf Hubzilla, wo es bei Kommentaren kein Eingabefeld dafür gibt, immer noch verbuggt sein; siehe ganz oben.)

CC: @damon @Hiker

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #FediverseKultur #MastodonKultur #NichtNurMastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #AltText #AltTextMeta #CWAltTextMeta #Bildbeschreibung #Bildbeschreibungen #BiBesch #BildbeschreibungenMeta #CWBildbeschreibungenMeta